tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post3125220960947976081..comments2024-02-26T02:54:12.743-05:00Comments on How to Paint Your Panda: Depression And Stress/Mood Disorders: Causes Of Repetitive Negative Thinking And RuminationsAlexis Delanoirhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09507261330011665079noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-87543818847445536822014-12-20T18:47:21.145-05:002014-12-20T18:47:21.145-05:00I try to be stern but truthful when addressing cla...I try to be stern but truthful when addressing claims such as these. I put a lot of work into this post since it's such an important topic, so I'm glad that paid off.<br /><br />Thank you very much for commenting Neurocritic! I'm a big fan of your work.Alexis Delanoirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09507261330011665079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-23568945535997532912014-12-20T18:15:19.394-05:002014-12-20T18:15:19.394-05:00This is such a wonderfully informed and balanced r...This is such a wonderfully informed and balanced reply to Anonymous's comment. And your whole post is fantastic, by the way.The Neurocritichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08010555869208208621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-67604971581085071962014-12-13T03:52:01.662-05:002014-12-13T03:52:01.662-05:00I know, I'm sorry that I didn't include an...I know, I'm sorry that I didn't include anything like that in the article, but unfortunately none such literature exists to my knowledge. I can confidently say, however, that RNT and ruminations would be much more likely to occur in children who were raised without healthy parents than their counterparts. As Brutal discussed, proper responsiveness to distress and dysphoria is a developmental process with socially normative context. Without the proper context to assist in the developmental process of coping with stressors, the child will likely be susceptible to depressive episodes later in the future, including experiences of RNT. I hope that answers your question.Alexis Delanoirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09507261330011665079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-14707649553229307952014-12-13T01:12:52.359-05:002014-12-13T01:12:52.359-05:00Is there any research available for those who suff...Is there any research available for those who suffer from RNT but have no early family context?Matasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-41501944323611065812014-12-12T12:35:38.030-05:002014-12-12T12:35:38.030-05:00"The reason I have come to this conclusion is..."The reason I have come to this conclusion is, that is exactly what the destroy depression system is based on - and by changing just a few things we can revert back to our previous way of life. For me it worked, and for many others it has too."<br /><br />It could also be seen as being based on the premise that interaction with live animals is the cause of depression as well. Really, I don't think using a cell phone while going to therapy is going to make your depression persist any more than it already would. Correlation =/= causation.<br /><br />"I doubt systems like that will get much press though, after all, how will big Pharma companies make money from them? Come to think of it - when was the last time a big Pharma company cured anything? Polio maybe? It is not in their best interests to cure something - if they do that they will not make as much money. Much better they just mask the problems so we have to go back for more of their drugs. That way, they keep getting paid!"<br /><br />The pharmaceutical companies don't come up with the pills. Scientists do by testing their efficacy in a lab setting. Pharmaceutical companies only produce them in mass quantities for distribution. So, they haven't cured anything because that's not their job.<br /><br />Not being in their best interest is irrelevant. I had a similar discussion with someone who claimed that dental hygienists would not want to support water fluoridation because healthier teeth means less clients. I countered with the point that by the same logic, firefighters would never want to participate in events to educate people on fire prevention. But wait, they do! Do you know why? Because people are not as selfish as you think. Veterinarians do not try to complicate matters just to bring their clients' pets back into the office. Dentists do not break your teeth so you have to come back in. Tech specialists do not set your laptop to break in a week so you have to come back. None of these happen. This is a seldom-recognized fallacy called "asserting the consequent."<br /><br />You would benefit from reading the APA's take on this matter:<br /><br />http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/06/prescribing.aspx<br /><br />It's not an unrecognized issue. People in the psychology community condemn this type of practice. This does not invalidate the use of pills, however. It invalidates medical health professionals who do not examine their clients before offering a prescription for these pills. This is most likely in the case of psychiatrists, as their qualifications are in such matters. They aren't required to be trained in psychology, so they don't know how to use some other, possibly more preferable (for some individuals) evidence-based treatments.<br /><br />There are problems, yes, but it doesn't warrant conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical companies. That's just ridiculous.Alexis Delanoirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09507261330011665079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-91295557898533887632014-12-12T12:35:30.833-05:002014-12-12T12:35:30.833-05:00"Scientists and healthcare professionals seem..."Scientists and healthcare professionals seem to all assume that the answer to every illness is a drug. Every day, we are bombarded with news articles that drugs are the<br />way to fix any and all physical or mental problems."<br /><br />As discussed in this article, clinicians and psychologists consider much more than drugs. It's a myth that psychologists/psychiatrists only prescribe pills to handle these illnesses. They are always voluntary, and you are always free to read the list of side effects before taking them. Some individuals choose to take them because therapeutic methods may not work, and just because some individuals have bad experiences with these pills does not mean that everyone should be prevented from having access. It comes down to the individual, and just because these methods do not work for some individuals does not mean it shouldn't be permitted for any.<br /><br />"I used to suffer with depression terribly and antidepressants, as is the case with most people who take them, did not work. The doc used to start writing out a prescription for them before I even sat down!"<br /><br />Well then I would suggest finding another psychiatrist, or finding a psychologist instead, assuming what you said is true and you're not advertising.<br /><br />"In my search for a cure, I stumbled upon the [link], which is a system written by a former depression sufferer. What it teaches is a 7 step natural process that anyone can do. Diet, exercise, CBT, talk therapy and mindfulness are all part of the course to name but a few of the sections, and for me it was a godsend and my depression has almost vanished within a few short months."<br /><br />I'm happy for you, but that method may not necessarily work for all of us. I know it certainly didn't work for me. For some individuals, therapy is enough. For others, it isn't. Don't project your own experiences onto all depression sufferers.<br /><br />"The problem with all these pills and injections is a: they don't work for enough people, and b: they don't tackle the root cause of depression."<br /><br />If they treat a statistically significant number of people and are clinically shown to work in those cases, then they're a valid option. Also, they're not meant to tackle the root cause. They're meant to remediate the symptoms until other methods help you cope with depression.<br /><br />"Depression is becoming such a massive problem because of how much the human race has changed in the last 30 years. We as a race have not changed much since stone age times, however since we entered the technological age our way of life has changed dramatically - this is the cause of depression in my view."<br /><br />I'm as cynical as recent technological developments as the next person, but there's no way to link it to depression. I would attribute it partially to diets, improvements within the psychology community in diagnosing depression, and changes in what is considered socially normative in terms of sadness and depressive episodes.Alexis Delanoirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09507261330011665079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-10957941211970912902014-12-12T10:30:09.017-05:002014-12-12T10:30:09.017-05:00Here is the problem, as I see it, with the way dep...Here is the problem, as I see it, with the way depression is treated today:<br /><br />Scientists and healthcare professionals seem to all assume that the answer to every illness is a drug. Every day, we are bombarded with news articles that drugs are the<br />way to fix any and all physical or mental problems.<br /><br />"Overweight? Take this pill. Got depression? Take Prozac, or Ketamine, or as I have seen in news reports today - Laughing gas! Can't sleep? Take that pill, and oh by the way, these pills have side effects, so you will have to take a bunch of other pills to combat them!"<br /><br />I used to suffer with depression terribly and antidepressants, as is the case with most people who take them, did not work. The doc used to start writing out a prescription for them before I even sat down!<br />In my search for a cure, I stumbled upon the http://destroydepression.com, which is a<br />system written by a former depression sufferer. What it teaches is a 7 step natural process that anyone can do. Diet, exercise, CBT, talk therapy and mindfulness are all part of the course to name but a few of the sections, and for me it was a godsend and my depression has almost vanished within a few short months.<br /><br />The problem with all these pills and injections is a: they don't work for enough people, and b: they don't tackle the root cause of depression.<br /><br />Depression is becoming such a massive problem because of how much the human race has changed in the last 30 years. We as a race have not changed much since stone age times, however since we entered the technological age our way of life has changed dramatically - this is the cause of depressionin my view.<br /><br />The reason I have come to this conclusion is, that is exactly what the destroy depression system is based on - and by changing just a few things we can revert back to our previous way of life. For me it worked, and for many others it has too.<br /><br />I doubt systems like that will get much press though, after all, how will big Pharma companies make money from them?<br /><br />Come to think of it - when was the last time a big Pharma company cured anything? Polio maybe? It is not in their best interests to cure something - if they do that they will not make as much money. Much better they just mask the problems so we have to go back for more of their drugs. That way, they keep getting paid!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-89843074941183713022014-12-12T01:39:48.148-05:002014-12-12T01:39:48.148-05:00Thank you so much, Frankie! :)Thank you so much, Frankie! :)Alexis Delanoirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09507261330011665079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-83216689443026169622014-12-12T01:37:59.096-05:002014-12-12T01:37:59.096-05:00Although it is research you have done a good thing...Although it is research you have done a good thing Lex. This was helpful for me and many other, I am sure. Thank you for your hard work. If you had option, I would donate to support you. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01133098908704495714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-34549950973513143642014-12-12T01:03:04.380-05:002014-12-12T01:03:04.380-05:00Alright, I can see that. Thanks for your thoughts....Alright, I can see that. Thanks for your thoughts.Gastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02604409381534111646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-7128627350507631842014-12-12T01:00:16.626-05:002014-12-12T01:00:16.626-05:00If you two are done, I'd like to respond to Br...If you two are done, I'd like to respond to Brutal's concerns.<br /><br />I used Kovacs et al. as an illustration of how researchers are looking into clinical intervention frameworks to address pretenses for depressive disorders in adolescence. Of course, CERT is founded on the premises that (1) the child has dysfunctional regulatory responses to distress, and (2) the parents are competent and capable of raising their child properly; but CERT is but one of many intervention frameworks, which are all context- and case-specific. Having said that, the primary focus of this article was not on intervention, but on how to help the majority population (i.e. those in adolescence or post-adolescence) alleviate RNT, since intervention is too late. I merely used the study to address what can be done before adolescence. I would have used a meta-analysis, but I couldn't find one.<br /><br />Thank you for your input, Brutal. It's especially nice to have you inform the discussion, since you're far more qualified than I am.Alexis Delanoirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09507261330011665079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-79506618728919797052014-12-12T00:56:48.784-05:002014-12-12T00:56:48.784-05:00Societal expectations can be internalized, surely,...Societal expectations can be internalized, surely, and fear of having undesired disclosure of internal feelings and emotions can also be a great stressor which might push genders to respond differently to RNT. A woman is simply afraid of being too needy, so she just doesn't say anything but addresses her feelings anyway. A man is afraid of having emotions at all, and so tries to get rid of them or distract them.Alexis Delanoirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09507261330011665079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-27655390585881358442014-12-12T00:42:16.397-05:002014-12-12T00:42:16.397-05:00Sure, but first I'll shove the dictionary up y...Sure, but first I'll shove the dictionary up your ass.Jack Brutalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10358389533274476334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-43632932016417705352014-12-12T00:40:00.297-05:002014-12-12T00:40:00.297-05:00For those of us who can't understand Brutal...For those of us who can't understand Brutal's reading-out-of-a-psychology-dictionary bullshit, here's a translation:<br /><br />"Responses to distress and dysphoria are a developmental process which comes about within a given context of what's socially normative, while intervention techniques are given to parents for utilization to help prevent depression in their children with negative affectivity. If parents are teaching their children how to respond to stressors, but those parents ARE the stressors, then those children are going to have a fucked up view of what's socially normative, and that could just make the problems worse down the line; therefore, other intervention methods besides CERT should be considered."<br /><br />Jesus fucking Christ Brutal, you could have said what I just did without making all of our brains prolapse.Gastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02604409381534111646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-61116103847905344172014-12-12T00:30:54.692-05:002014-12-12T00:30:54.692-05:00I honestly hadn't considered gendered depressi...I honestly hadn't considered gendered depressive disorders, and I feel stupid for that. As for your suggestion, I can see what you're saying, but you would still have to answer the question of why the woman needs to ruminate and the man needs to forget. If they're both responding to societal expectations, then why is it that the woman still needs to think on her emotions but the man needs to forget them. Why wouldn't they both just try to forget them, or why wouldn't they both just think about them, but just avoid the expression of those feelings externally?Gastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02604409381534111646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-48100993931421560752014-12-12T00:24:41.255-05:002014-12-12T00:24:41.255-05:00Ruminations are of particular interest due to thei...Ruminations are of particular interest due to their paradoxical causality/association with depression. To give more information to Mykala's question earlier, intervention preadolescence, specifically CERT, is concerned with a child's adaptive self-regulation of distress and dysphoria, as these precede the onset of depressive disorders. Problems in this adaptive function will result in the inability to cope or facilitate the onset of depression, thus the intervention framework needs to take into account, identify and remediate dysfunctional regulatory responses. This directly involves the normative social context which precedes developmental regulatory response, which speaks problematically to the use of CERT in the case of RNT onsets which are a result of early family context. The child's inability to properly regulate or response to distress and dysphoria cannot be altered, and agency for CERT incorporation is ultimately given to the parent(s) or guardian(s). This could lead to even worse developmental issues for the child if the parent is instructed how to help prevent depression but not alter their own behavior; it will result in a child with unconventional and harmful ideas of what is socially normative. In these cases, even if the child does not already exhibit dysfunctional regulatory responses to distress/dysphoria, the intervention should be focused on the parents, not the child. That is, proper parenting would be the key in such a scenario. In short, CERT is not always the best solution.<br /><br />Very informative, Lex. I'm glad to see you looking into these topics, but of course I enjoy your musings in anthropology and religion as well.Jack Brutalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10358389533274476334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-35525375859140341812014-12-11T23:29:37.754-05:002014-12-11T23:29:37.754-05:00Thanks Nick, I'm glad too! I feel for children...Thanks Nick, I'm glad too! I feel for children who don't have the voice, the means or the words to get themselves help, and I resent parents who are too proud to admit that there's something wrong with their child, either by their own doing or otherwise.<br /><br />I can't offer a solid answer to that. Some pretty confident reasons would be explainable via PMDD and PPD, but they can't explain the whole. Hormones may play a role, since the depression gap starts at puberty but ends after menopause, but that's too much of a generalized response and quite frankly I'm tired of the "hormones bind us" crap anyway.<br /><br />Consider this possibility: it's socially normative for men to want to suppress their feelings and deal with them, i.e "be strong," while it's okay for women to have feelings, but expressing them too often and to others can be seen as being needy. It would follow then that men would want to suppress their feelings, or not acknowledge them, while women would linger on them. It obviously depends on the individual, and their support group, but I see that as a possible idea. You have experience dealing with this: what do you think?Alexis Delanoirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09507261330011665079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-58212083192907775562014-12-11T23:02:22.631-05:002014-12-11T23:02:22.631-05:00Very high quality post. I'm glad that that a l...Very high quality post. I'm glad that that a lot of people have taken notice to this. Childhood depression must be a terrible thing to deal with, especially given the things you mentioned in your other comment.<br /><br />What do you think the reason is for the gender differential in coping with depressive episodes? I heard that men are more likely to drink, but why do you think women are more likely to ruminate than men, specifically?Gastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02604409381534111646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-29781050674718648612014-12-11T22:32:22.684-05:002014-12-11T22:32:22.684-05:00You've answered me more than well enough, so t...You've answered me more than well enough, so thank you. It confirms what I was thinking and helps me better understand the reality of this.<br /><br />I'm glad you've gotten so much feedback and attention from this post. Of course you deserve it for all your posts for the hard work you put into each one; for one that might be personally significant to a lot of your viewers though, I'm especially glad for the response you've gotten already. :)Mykalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723809909171053855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-19639512741432153992014-12-11T21:59:54.909-05:002014-12-11T21:59:54.909-05:00I had seldom heard it either; at the very least, I...I had seldom heard it either; at the very least, I never knew it was a term for clinical consideration. I had heard of ruminations before, though. It is comforting, and by no means should you "just forget about it" -- that just makes things worse.<br /><br />Concerning your questions about early intervention, unfortunately I think you're right. The model suggested by Kovacs et al. (2006) was contextual emotion-regulation therapy (CERT), which of course would require parental consent. I would seldom expect the child to self-disclose to their parents or talk to them about their behaviour, but to friends instead, and that usually happens once they've built a strong social network (i.e. starting in adolescence). The problem is, the typicality of parents who use the types of parenting methods mentioned in the article to being narcissistic is very high, and thus would likely reject intervention programs. I think the wording is crucial: intervention in childhood depression is much easier to accept among parents than intervention in RNT explicitly due to their upbringing, as an expressed possibility. That would likely get a kick in the ass out the door; parents are cynical enough of psychologists, let alone relevant clinicians. It's an unfortunate and complicated situation, which is why I wanted to place strong emphasis on the solutions for individuals after any possibility for intervention has been lost, or if intervention didn't work when they were a child, because I see that as being the most likely scenario.<br /><br />I'm glad this post helped you especially, but others as well. I've already received feedback from people who personally appreciated this article, and that makes me feel good. The Shares astonished me... It's actually record-breaking for how quickly it came. I'm very hopeful now, as well as grateful, given that the past few weeks have not been the most successful or pleasant concerning blog matters.<br /><br />Thank you for sharing your input. I hope I answered your question sufficiently!Alexis Delanoirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09507261330011665079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1401164853017483440.post-73274310811038686112014-12-11T21:48:12.729-05:002014-12-11T21:48:12.729-05:00I've been trying to figure out what to say for...I've been trying to figure out what to say for the past several minutes in order to truly articulate myself after reading this post; I never knew that repetitive negative thinking was an actual term, or something that is even researched in psychology. I always thought it was a kind of insignificant side effect of some of the disorders you mentioned above, people with low self-esteem, etc., and that was it. I just had no idea that there was research into this and that it is something studied. I guess I'm trying to say is that it's comforting knowing there is exploration into this topic, and not just a "Well stop thinking about it" kind of thing.<br /><br />I'm curious about your thoughts on the part on childhood and early intervention to prevent RNT and ruminations in adolescence. When I read that, I couldn't help but think that early intervention would be extremely unlikely or even impossible in early childhood because honestly, how many children understand what's going on in their heads enough to make it apparent there's a problem? And, from my own thoughts, I also think it'd be unlikely that a child in the examples you gave would be willing to share their thoughts with their parents, especially if they are the cause of such thoughts, making early intervention unlikely again. Basically: I think that early childhood intervention to prevent adolescent RNT is unlikely to occur due to the situations that will cause the RNT and ruminations to begin with. So, what are your thoughts on that? Since you're better versed on the subject (obviously), there might be things I don't know when it comes to intervention in childhood, so maybe you can explain that to me. (I hope I made sense, sorry!)<br /><br />You know me, so you'll know that I'm grateful that you've made a post about this because it gives me some kind of validity and understanding of this subject. It also gives me hope that psychologists and researchers will continue to get a better understanding of RNT, more preventive methods, and more effective ways to cope with it. <br /><br />Thank you for including something like this on your blog, Lex. It _is_ helpful, and I'm sure many other people are thankful as well. (Looks at the "Share" bar).Mykalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723809909171053855noreply@blogger.com